WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:14.560 Okay, everyone, thank you for making it at 9 a.m. as you can hear my voice is already a bit 00:14.560 --> 00:19.400 going away because of all the exciting days that we have at Falsdem and around. I am 00:19.400 --> 00:29.240 Paoloxagosevska and I am with the Linux Foundation Europe. Yeah, like this. Okay, I will 00:29.240 --> 00:35.600 start again then and I see some late commerce again appreciated for you coming here at 9 a.m. 00:35.600 --> 00:40.400 I'm Paoloxagosevska and I am with the Linux Foundation Europe. I've been working on open 00:40.400 --> 00:46.000 source and policy for the past seven years and I have to say that I'm very excited about the 00:46.000 --> 00:51.200 point that we achieved. So far and I think it's a lot because of the people in this room 00:51.200 --> 00:56.640 and the thousands of people at Falsdem. But yeah, let's start with the short introductions 00:56.640 --> 01:00.480 from the speakers. I will allow you to talk about yourself a little bit and what are we doing 01:00.480 --> 01:06.160 here? Vitorio. Thanks for the light. Hi, I'm Vitorio Bertola. I'm the head of policy for 01:06.160 --> 01:10.160 open exchange which is a German open source software company. We make the Avko to make 01:10.160 --> 01:14.600 power DNS and we are one of the companies involved in the digital solar DF thoughts about 01:14.600 --> 01:22.200 the German in France providing the web mail platform. Good morning everyone and voices are going. 01:22.200 --> 01:28.680 Clearly, I am Gabriela Gullumbro. I work for the Linux Foundation, the two things that the 01:28.680 --> 01:37.480 Linux Foundation, one lead Linux Foundation Europe and the two I manage a foundation called 01:37.480 --> 01:47.800 Finance that brings banks to collaborate on open search. Hello everyone. Thank you for joining 01:47.800 --> 01:55.160 at this very special 9AM Sondesla. My name is Tierra's and general manager for the 01:55.160 --> 02:01.720 open infrastructure foundation which is the home for the open stack project and also the 02:01.720 --> 02:06.680 vice chair at the open source initiative. So talking about digital solar IT sounds like a 02:06.680 --> 02:20.280 nice topic. Should we speak like this? Okay and let us know if you don't hear us because 02:20.280 --> 02:24.920 that's important that you hear us that's where we are here. A little short intro because 02:24.920 --> 02:29.720 as I work on policy for us it's very normal to talk about digital sovereignty and then talk 02:29.720 --> 02:35.000 about open source and you know six years ago seven years ago when I worked on this topic 02:35.080 --> 02:41.800 in policy in Brussels with politicians and I said that I focus on open source policy faces 02:41.800 --> 02:47.880 were very surprised, all the eyebrows were raised. It's not the case anymore and it's often 02:47.880 --> 02:52.440 because of the narrative of digital sovereignty. It's a lot of because of the geopolitical 02:52.440 --> 03:00.360 tensions. It's because Europe has realized that the dependency runs quite deep but I would 03:00.360 --> 03:06.280 like to ask my speakers because you know we say that Europe has to gain more independence when 03:06.280 --> 03:13.160 it comes to its technological stack. Many are trying to define it. I honestly don't want to focus 03:13.160 --> 03:20.120 on trying to define what digital sovereignty means. I don't find it to practical and to help 03:20.120 --> 03:27.160 for but what I would like to ask is what is the most omitted when we talk about digital sovereignty 03:27.240 --> 03:34.120 in the context of open tech because us we believe that open source is good. Policy makers don't 03:34.120 --> 03:41.560 necessarily. They see it as oh why should Europe open source its achievements, its technological 03:41.560 --> 03:47.640 progress if this is up for grabs from other countries. Should we start with dealing? 03:47.640 --> 03:56.920 Yeah. So I think what's missing from the discussion when people talk about digital sovereignty 03:56.920 --> 04:05.720 sometimes it doesn't get very practical or very defined and I feel like if we can narrow down 04:05.720 --> 04:14.680 on what is the actual goal in the end it's like there's clearly something we needed yesterday 04:14.680 --> 04:23.240 which is more control over the data and the compute that's happening within Europe. We want 04:23.240 --> 04:28.760 our lowest to apply to it. We wanted to be protected by private circles from the EU. That's 04:28.760 --> 04:34.840 something we needed yesterday. Today we need also to make sure that our infrastructure for critical 04:34.840 --> 04:43.720 workload can't be turned off the next day. So that's the day one resilience and more and more 04:43.720 --> 04:51.480 people realize that they need also to have continuity. They to be able to invest in technologies 04:51.480 --> 04:57.480 that are going to be available to them tomorrow. Not just because it tells which might be turned 04:57.480 --> 05:03.560 but more like the investment they are making into those technologies need to survive any type 05:03.560 --> 05:10.120 of geopolitical or corporate event. We've seen with VMware changing that pricing that sometimes 05:10.760 --> 05:15.960 is not a great thing to bet on a proprietary stack. And I think open source and more specifically 05:16.920 --> 05:20.600 open source that openly governed protect you against those three 05:21.560 --> 05:25.560 important scenarios. The one that we should have worked on for a very long time. The one that we 05:25.560 --> 05:31.640 need to protect ourselves against today and the one that we need for for a long term investment in 05:31.640 --> 05:38.600 those technologies. I'm going to project first time that as an Italian detailed 05:38.600 --> 05:45.320 made that I don't speak loud enough. So can I? Yeah. So I want to piggyback on what to 05:45.320 --> 05:53.240 reset and to be fair I've seen this changing even this week with respect to the previous 05:53.240 --> 05:57.800 conversations that I've had over the last few years. But to me is that the 05:58.440 --> 06:05.400 oftentimes open source and providers after I've referred as a complete dualism 06:06.600 --> 06:15.800 false dichotomy. Keep trying. And seriously, but especially when it comes to this sort of 06:15.800 --> 06:21.800 openly governed ecosystems, we've seen in Linux and Kubernetes and several examples that we 06:21.800 --> 06:30.600 have in the Linux Foundation, it's a sort of combination of keeping the governance and sort of 06:30.600 --> 06:36.040 creating a sort of a basic system of open source technology that can be harmonized together. 06:36.040 --> 06:43.480 But there is a whole commercial side of things. And so most of this open source is brought to market 06:43.480 --> 06:48.920 by a product and services vendors. And so there are conversations around funding, 06:48.920 --> 06:55.000 commercialization around industry contributing back. There's a lot of sustainability 06:55.000 --> 07:00.680 questions here. I've used for the last ten years to work with banks and I know it's possible, 07:00.680 --> 07:07.080 even they're not like immediately thinking about open source from a good for the world standpoint. 07:07.080 --> 07:11.400 So I think I was excited this week even throughout the whole open source week to see 07:12.200 --> 07:16.040 more conversations around funding, more conversation around actually how we 07:16.360 --> 07:22.600 sustain the ecosystem. And the fact that it's not just a black or white open source versus 07:22.600 --> 07:29.400 provider. Thank you. So what I think is most missing from the discussion on European digital 07:29.400 --> 07:33.960 sovereignty is the economic aspect. So we talk a lot about transparency, security, 07:33.960 --> 07:38.200 being dependent on being subject to which is by the Americans, this kind of the. And this is 07:38.200 --> 07:44.200 all true. But we also have to understand that this vital matter of survival for the European 07:44.200 --> 07:50.920 economy. We have an European inton sector. It's small. It's small maybe because we are not 07:50.920 --> 07:55.320 great entrepreneurs. I don't know, but I think it's small mostly because we have been convinced 07:55.320 --> 07:59.640 that the Europeans are not good, that making good everyday online services and products and 07:59.640 --> 08:04.040 software stuff. So we have to buy American because it's better. And this is false. I mean, 08:04.040 --> 08:07.560 there's a lot of very good products in Europe that don't get bought because we have been 08:07.560 --> 08:12.440 convinced that we have to buy the others because the others are better. And this is vital for 08:12.440 --> 08:16.040 our economies. Because this means that every year there are billions of euros, 08:16.040 --> 08:21.000 both public money and private money that fly away from our economies and go to places 08:21.000 --> 08:25.960 every mostly into the Silicon Valley, but a lot of the world. And create jobs there, create 08:25.960 --> 08:29.800 wealth, actually create a lot of power in the hands of very few people there. And we, 08:29.800 --> 08:35.000 we are on money are actually promoting this and creating this very dependence. And what we need 08:35.000 --> 08:39.880 to do is to change this flow of money, make it sure most of it stays in Europe with European 08:39.880 --> 08:44.120 companies also with non-European companies, but stays in Europe, creates jobs in Europe, 08:44.120 --> 08:48.040 taxation in Europe, and they have a news in Europe. And this will really change our destiny. 08:50.440 --> 08:56.120 Thank you. I feel like all of you are touching upon quite similar points that I want to pick up on. 08:56.120 --> 09:02.200 So, Tiri, you were talking about the dependency that comes from because, okay, 09:02.200 --> 09:07.880 there are all these ideas of software made in Europe. I don't know if you have seen a label like this 09:07.960 --> 09:12.680 from our open source perspective, it doesn't seem like a great idea because it's 09:12.680 --> 09:18.360 recreating yet another dependency. And then Vitoria talked about very good products in Europe 09:18.360 --> 09:24.280 that are not being scaled up and that are not given the chance to actually penetrate the market. 09:24.280 --> 09:29.240 What do you think we should do to change that? Because the other ideas to have software made in 09:29.240 --> 09:33.560 Europe, how do we make open source software to be at the heart of this? 09:33.560 --> 09:42.760 So, you're right that the biggest mistake we could make is to not leverage what's already there 09:42.760 --> 09:49.160 and make sure that it is consummable by the European businesses and the public sector and 09:49.160 --> 09:55.240 everyone, whatever their approach to software is. And I think that what's missing right now, 09:55.240 --> 10:02.360 at least in my field, a lot of people want to deploy new infrastructure on our local infrastructure, 10:02.360 --> 10:07.640 that means a lot of interest for the projects that we host. But at the same time, the ecosystem 10:07.640 --> 10:14.120 of companies, the local ecosystem does not necessarily provide the services or the products that 10:14.120 --> 10:20.600 those industry need. And the early adopters, the people that can run their own infrastructure 10:20.600 --> 10:26.440 like technical code and deploy it, they're going to use our software already. But the next group 10:26.440 --> 10:30.520 is all of those companies that have, don't want to be in the business of providing infrastructure, 10:30.520 --> 10:35.560 they need partners, they need the ecosystem of companies. And it exists in the US, it exists 10:35.560 --> 10:41.640 in China, in Asia, in general. It doesn't exist that much in the EU. And oftentimes, 10:43.080 --> 10:49.880 the contracts are won by US-based consulting companies, not local. So, we need to foster 10:49.880 --> 10:55.320 a healthy ecosystem of supply of services around those technologies, I think. 10:55.400 --> 11:06.200 Riffy now from the same concept. I mean, I do think that there are a lot of European 11:06.200 --> 11:14.840 small and medium enterprises that build on open source. I started my career long ago, 11:14.840 --> 11:19.880 I'm not going to age myself, but in an open source consulting company, it's sort of the late 11:19.880 --> 11:25.800 2010s. But I do think what's missing is scale. One thing that I mentioned is sort of funding, 11:27.000 --> 11:31.960 but if I can share an experience from what we've seen again in some of the ecosystems in the Linux 11:31.960 --> 11:40.280 Foundation, there's a little bit of consolidation needed here in my mind for achieving sort of the 11:40.280 --> 11:47.960 scale for which these companies can then serve some of the large enterprises that we have in Europe. 11:48.040 --> 11:52.280 The kind of actually compete at scale. And when I think consolidation, I mean, 11:52.280 --> 11:58.440 not necessarily just from a, you know, merger and acquisition or sort of commercial standpoint, 11:59.800 --> 12:05.080 I'll give an example. In the Linux Foundation, you know, we started to say the cloud native computing 12:05.080 --> 12:09.960 Foundation was based around Kubernetes. And obviously that started with Google, open source 12:09.960 --> 12:18.120 ing it for commercial reasons, effectively. But then Kubernetes became sort of a magnetic asset 12:18.120 --> 12:25.160 that started attracting other projects into this openly governed ecosystem that, you know, 12:25.720 --> 12:30.920 almost like organically created connection. So there was a level of technical integration 12:30.920 --> 12:37.400 completely in the open that allowed for, you know, this harmonization, this technical 12:37.400 --> 12:42.920 consolidation, which ultimately means that the companies that then build on it, say commercial 12:42.920 --> 12:49.560 open source companies, can focus sort of push the innovation top of the stack, allows you to focus on 12:50.200 --> 12:55.560 actually delivering sort of the last mile to your customers, to scale sort of on the 12:56.600 --> 13:01.720 services support and UX, which is sort of these things that we say, open source people can do that. 13:01.720 --> 13:06.920 Well, it's because we spend too much time from the lower layers. And so I think a degree of 13:08.680 --> 13:15.560 technical harmonization between this, this small and medium projects and open source 13:16.120 --> 13:23.960 companies in Europe could be useful to help then scale how we service the large industries that are in 13:23.960 --> 13:31.160 Europe. Yes. Well, I agree that we have, I mean, the proprietary European industry is already coming 13:31.160 --> 13:35.240 up with, I mean, they say, no, we have proprietary European software made in Europe because we control 13:35.240 --> 13:40.520 everything, every single line is written in Europe, so that's the Europeans. So we do have urgently 13:40.520 --> 13:46.920 to agree on the response. So what do we buy a European open source offer from digital sovereignty? 13:47.640 --> 13:52.760 And in our case, even if our software is made in Europe, it's not every light of code is made in Europe, 13:52.760 --> 13:56.520 and it's fine like this. So there's no need to look at where the code is coming from. 13:57.080 --> 14:02.040 I think that if we look at the objectives of both of sovereignty and the economic objectives, 14:02.040 --> 14:07.640 the point is who is being paid to put together the products, to maintain it, to have the 14:07.640 --> 14:12.760 know-how and support and to sell it in the end. So the point is that the vendors have to be 14:12.760 --> 14:17.480 European or at least in Europe and that the wealth the demand of generators to be in terms of 14:17.480 --> 14:22.600 European jobs and taxation and so on. And I think if we go by that definition, then a lot of 14:22.600 --> 14:26.920 two problems disappear because nobody wants to, you know, start checking the nationality of 14:26.920 --> 14:31.800 authors of contributors on GitHub, that would be crazy, it would break open source. On the other 14:31.800 --> 14:36.040 hand, we also cannot just say well, open source is global, so it's fine if we get a 14:36.040 --> 14:39.640 European money. We continue giving, I mean rather than giving money to American private, 14:39.640 --> 14:43.320 the proprietary software companies, we give it to American open source companies. This is also, 14:43.320 --> 14:48.200 yeah, it will not fly with politicians. So we have to find an answer that guarantees that 14:48.200 --> 14:52.760 in the end the wealth stays here without breaking the open source development model, but I think 14:52.760 --> 15:00.440 it's entirely doable. I feel like a lot of what you're talking about is pointing us to the topic 15:00.440 --> 15:05.640 of fragmentation, fragmentation of, you know, you have a company in one European country, 15:05.640 --> 15:10.440 then it's not necessarily that straightforward to the business in another European country. 15:11.480 --> 15:16.600 We talk about fragmentation about many initiatives that are trying to solve the problem of digital 15:16.600 --> 15:23.160 sovereignty. I would like to start with these barriers to doing business, and I think here 15:23.160 --> 15:28.440 it's Victoria, that, you know, from the, like, more SME perspective, I'm curious about it. 15:28.440 --> 15:32.520 Also, if you have questions to each other, I invite you to ask questions to each other. 15:34.520 --> 15:38.760 No, well, first of all, the European companies have all the problems of any European 15:38.760 --> 15:44.440 companies, so in economic terms, a European is not too friendly to business, you say. 15:44.440 --> 15:49.080 And indeed, there's a problem of capital, you know, actually available to venture capital in 15:49.080 --> 15:55.080 Europe is 120 of the United States. So there's still some fundamental economic things we have to 15:55.080 --> 16:02.520 work upon. But I mean, for the rest, I mean, on the other hand, I'm wearing, when people say, 16:02.520 --> 16:06.600 you know, Europe needs to be there on Google. There's this myth that again, we are inferior to 16:06.600 --> 16:10.840 the Americans because the Americans could be Google, and we don't have any very big. This is false, 16:11.160 --> 16:15.800 because we are fundamentally different. We still are an archipelago of countries, cultures, languages, 16:15.800 --> 16:20.760 and whatever. And so we try to build a single digital market, but we do need to have companies 16:20.760 --> 16:25.640 everywhere and to adapt to each and every culture, sub-culture in Europe. And open sources perfect for 16:25.640 --> 16:31.480 this, because it gives you, like, open interfaces, open protocols, and you can cooperate horizontally, 16:31.480 --> 16:36.120 you can find a partner in Lithuania, or in Portugal, or any part of the European Union. 16:36.120 --> 16:40.600 And work together. So this is the kind of cooperation we have to do. And I think, 16:40.600 --> 16:44.440 open source fits that well. So we have to stress it also with public politicians. 16:46.840 --> 16:52.920 I think it absolutely right. I'll try to find something where we can have a little bit of spice, 16:52.920 --> 16:57.320 a little bit of conflict, but you're absolutely right. And to be fair, when I mean scaling, 16:58.200 --> 17:05.400 I don't think we should go to the hyperscaler level. I, you know, there are some fundamental 17:06.280 --> 17:12.120 I would say challenges right now in technology are required. That level of scale, you know, 17:12.120 --> 17:19.960 we're talking AI, we're talking cloud, but, you know, I will go play don't get rotten tomatoes, 17:19.960 --> 17:26.360 but I do live in California. And there are absolutely problems with the hyperscaler approach. 17:26.360 --> 17:32.360 I feel less and less comfortable being there and being part of that ethos. Let's say, 17:32.440 --> 17:41.000 you know, do you know evil? Yeah. I mean, questionable. So, but what kind of kind of tying, 17:41.000 --> 17:48.360 I think we touched on funding. We touched on, I think, one area that to your point of making it easier 17:48.360 --> 17:55.480 to do business. Again, I'm hearing more recently, things like Ewing, it was part of the 17:55.560 --> 18:00.280 one of the policy priorities in the last few weeks from from multistarom and the lion, 18:01.800 --> 18:08.120 funding. But I go back to that also harmonization of the ecosystem is that, you know, 18:08.120 --> 18:13.960 open source, we can build together, we can integrate. To me, the de facto standard digestion, 18:13.960 --> 18:19.640 you know, there's been a lot of, you know, historically Europe, you know, has strong, you know, 18:19.640 --> 18:24.760 European standard bodies. There's a lot of standard digestion, so sometimes innovation is measures 18:24.840 --> 18:32.280 in terms of standards and, and, or more recently, regulation, you know, that's his regulation 18:32.280 --> 18:38.360 to harmonize the ecosystem top down. And, you know, I think the narrative has changed, you know, 18:38.360 --> 18:47.960 regulation is out. Well, we'll see. But I do think that more organic, de facto standard digestion, 18:48.040 --> 18:54.280 that open source, when we actually work together, you know, if we have a thousand different 18:54.280 --> 19:00.280 separate projects in GitHub, it's going to be hard. But I think, again, going back to creating sort 19:00.280 --> 19:07.480 of a pivot, kind of a large technology that we can all use to build and integrate against, 19:07.480 --> 19:14.200 that and in my experience to move faster than, you know, just regulation and standard digestion. 19:14.280 --> 19:20.040 And so I hope we'll look at, you know, whether it's a U-DLE stack or however you want to call it, 19:20.040 --> 19:25.640 something that can really create this, then it was facilitated that the ecosystem of this 19:25.640 --> 19:33.000 companies that would scale on it. I want to quickly go back on to the topic of fragmentation, 19:33.000 --> 19:39.800 because more wearing my open source initiative had, it feels like there's some difficult conversations 19:39.880 --> 19:48.280 ahead around having less projects, because it's what made the success of open sources of 19:48.280 --> 19:53.560 those easy experimentations. Everyone can build their own code, they can fork and existing code 19:53.560 --> 19:58.760 and drive it into a different direction that really let a lot of innovation happen. At the same 19:58.760 --> 20:04.360 time, we're facing right now a problem of sustainability and the ecosystem, how do we get all of 20:04.360 --> 20:12.040 those JavaScript libraries that just do shift left? They have like 20, they're all maintained by 20:12.040 --> 20:17.400 one person, maybe just having one or two maintained by two people would be, would be actually more 20:17.400 --> 20:25.000 sustainable. So there's, it's not a natural conversation for the open source developers. And so 20:25.000 --> 20:32.200 I feel like we want to escape some discussion around concentration of effort to have less projects 20:32.280 --> 20:38.200 to maintain this project to sustain and also having this opportunity to create those platforms 20:38.200 --> 20:45.240 where more, more effort can be, can be called as, but also much just about a branding perspective. 20:46.280 --> 20:52.920 We have plenty of solutions to do things that are provided by US providers right now in Europe, 20:52.920 --> 20:58.120 but they don't reach the level, the critical mass of visibility or the critical mass of branding 20:58.120 --> 21:04.760 that will make them natural choices for companies. Like people continue to use doodle for planning 21:04.760 --> 21:10.920 their meetings, we have from a date, we have other things that have never completely reached 21:10.920 --> 21:16.040 the level of visibility and I think it's part of it is unfortunately due to the diversity of the 21:16.040 --> 21:21.480 offering. And so we have hard discussions ahead around maybe we need less projects, maybe we need 21:21.480 --> 21:26.360 to concentrate on the same projects, maybe we need to build up some of those to a level of visibility 21:26.440 --> 21:30.920 we will let them be the natural choice for at least the European based companies. 21:32.600 --> 21:39.080 Thank you, that's indeed not an easy discussion and I do feel like some of the funding initiatives 21:39.080 --> 21:44.840 are going to have an impact on it, such as the European sovereign tech fund, I assume most people 21:44.840 --> 21:51.000 in the room have heard about this proposal. If you haven't take a look, it's a project that 21:51.080 --> 21:58.840 proposes for the EU to put substantial funding for core foundational open source projects. 21:58.840 --> 22:05.880 It's based on the German sovereign tech fund and in my opinion it seems like probably 22:05.880 --> 22:12.440 you know just if it does happen, if we do have the USTF it's going to point to quite some of those 22:12.440 --> 22:20.520 projects that should become the larger ones and you know kind of through natural competition 22:20.600 --> 22:28.200 and sustainability, please. Just I don't want to be in there shoes because it's going to be 22:28.200 --> 22:33.000 everyone is going to ask for funding for their project and at some point they will have to pick, 22:33.000 --> 22:37.960 they will have to choose and it's going to be super hard but it's necessary. 22:39.560 --> 22:46.840 And Victoria, let's make sure that this is actually an active fund, that does decisions and 22:46.840 --> 22:51.080 decides to invest in stuff that is actually necessary, rather than a passive fund, like most of 22:51.080 --> 22:55.240 the European funding is like you, they wait there and someone comes with the paperwork and if the 22:55.240 --> 22:59.240 paperwork is fine, yes you get the money and five years later you have a proof of concept, 22:59.240 --> 23:04.280 then it dies, nothing ever. I mean how many internet good internet products are widely used 23:04.280 --> 23:08.920 in the products came out of European search projects? I think zero and we spent like 30 billion 23:09.000 --> 23:19.640 50 billion over time. And just to be purposeful, honestly I see the USTF more as a 23:20.680 --> 23:27.480 maintenance fund that's necessarily an innovation engine, I mean obviously we need to make sure that 23:27.480 --> 23:34.600 the building blocks especially those smaller libraries sort of the maintainer in Nebraska type 23:35.000 --> 23:43.240 things are supported and I think the public sector should own that, like the own roads, 23:44.360 --> 23:51.640 railways, even from a defense standpoint and cybersecurity standpoint, the impact I think would be 23:51.640 --> 23:57.880 outsized with respect to many other sort of defense investments that we do, but I don't see that 23:57.880 --> 24:03.480 as the necessarily sort of innovation engine, that's let's make sure that the basics are covered 24:03.480 --> 24:10.760 then we have sustainability for the for the core projects that in the end the larger open source 24:10.760 --> 24:15.800 and companies build on, but yeah I don't see that sort of the innovation side of things. 24:18.920 --> 24:22.280 I think there's another thing we have to explain governments also thinking about what 24:22.280 --> 24:26.280 you were saying about the multiplication of projects, that we have to tell governments how to 24:26.280 --> 24:30.520 be good in the 90s and see the sense of this ecosystem, because some of the governments have 24:30.520 --> 24:33.800 sort of understood that they're working with projects, they've found in the projects, some 24:33.800 --> 24:37.720 other governments have just downloaded the entire core base, forked it and made their own version, 24:37.720 --> 24:42.040 they put their national flag, I mean talking about the French of course, so and basically 24:42.040 --> 24:45.560 they fucked the projects and started really developing them on their own, which is not very 24:45.560 --> 24:50.040 constructive, so I think we have to explain also to the governments how to be part of this. 24:52.840 --> 24:59.320 I would like to go a bit more towards policy, because you know there are all of those initiatives 24:59.320 --> 25:03.640 now and I feel like even you're guessing that yeah you see a fork is very needed but it 25:03.640 --> 25:08.840 just is like foundational layer, this is very different thinking than we had a couple years ago. 25:08.840 --> 25:13.640 I haven't really met many polysomakers who were thinking that oh you SDF is such a bad idea 25:13.640 --> 25:18.120 we should absolutely not do it. I haven't really encountered that, so we have gone a long, 25:18.120 --> 25:24.600 long way, but if we look a bit more future looking in terms of policy what do you think should 25:24.680 --> 25:31.080 be done that we achieve some kind of digital sovereignty in the next 10, 15 years? What is like 25:31.080 --> 25:34.760 the most important part of the policy process that we should focus on? 25:36.520 --> 25:41.960 I'll take the easy answer, because policy is not necessarily my strongest suit, 25:41.960 --> 25:47.800 public procurement obviously, that's one of the levers that the 25:48.040 --> 25:54.920 policy makers have at the very least the government and the public sector should 25:55.560 --> 26:03.080 buy digital sovereignty solutions and that's obvious to me that the very easy lever 26:03.080 --> 26:07.880 but we need to find other level endeavors is good. There is also the question of 26:08.200 --> 26:16.520 forcing organizations, private organizations to care about sovereignty, 26:16.520 --> 26:24.200 you know, like not just the next month quarterly results but also maybe building up the 26:24.200 --> 26:30.600 subordinate independence or the resilience of the European ecosystems against 26:30.600 --> 26:37.800 geopolitical changes against the corporate decisions that's not going to come 26:37.880 --> 26:41.640 naturally, unfortunately to those companies so there need to be some 26:42.840 --> 26:49.480 amounts of policy to force them to take into account that dimension otherwise will always be 26:49.480 --> 27:04.200 renewable. I want to build on that and I would say I would love to see a 27:04.200 --> 27:12.840 mature and sort of harmonized definition of what, how do you understanding and therefore 27:12.840 --> 27:20.040 reflection of that understanding of how actually the ecosystem works across 27:21.320 --> 27:25.080 different pieces of policy and that might be, you know, obviously there is this open 27:25.080 --> 27:29.720 consultation that closes in a couple of days on the open source ecosystem, they've received over 27:29.800 --> 27:37.320 a thousand responses, send them more, they're definitely are listening, but I think 27:37.880 --> 27:43.800 sort of embodying a lot of the concepts that we discussed, you know, it's based on the global 27:43.800 --> 27:50.760 common sense, it's not just, you know, proprietary versus open source but there is an ecosystem 27:51.640 --> 27:59.480 where you just said, like I think I'm Indian from Matrix, a couple of days ago, the policy 27:59.480 --> 28:04.280 is something really interesting, like if you're in the procurement directive, if you're procuring, 28:04.280 --> 28:10.040 it's a public sector, you're procuring from an open source company, you can define what 28:10.040 --> 28:15.080 the definition of commercial open source company, but you should make sure that in that relationship 28:15.160 --> 28:20.760 you are mandating some degree of upstreaming, like it's not just your taking of inserting your 28:20.760 --> 28:26.760 selling it, okay, so you're better than everyone, are you actually contributing back upstream, 28:26.760 --> 28:34.760 not just the fixes, like the CRA, already sort of mandates, but also, you know, innovation, 28:34.760 --> 28:40.680 just going back to your idea of the take a project for a skin and it and then it's for, 28:40.680 --> 28:45.880 sort of like going back to sort of fostering the consolidation of the ecosystem and 28:47.400 --> 28:52.920 commercial sort of the private sector contributing actively to the sustainability of it. 28:54.920 --> 28:59.960 Yeah, in the end I agree, of course, the number one thing, especially in the shelter is changing 28:59.960 --> 29:04.520 public procurement, that's where we can get the money that really changes the market and it will give 29:05.080 --> 29:09.400 also private capital, that isn't to invest because there's a market and so there will be investments 29:09.400 --> 29:15.480 in making products better and companies will grow and maybe integrate. So if we give that for granted, 29:15.480 --> 29:21.080 I think that the next thing in the longer term is a change of mindset, I mean, as Europeans, 29:21.080 --> 29:26.760 I mean, even in the private companies, so start thinking at the consequences of what you buy, 29:26.760 --> 29:32.200 there's so much unaware, I mean, lack of awareness of the use of the technology and 29:32.200 --> 29:37.080 company, you know, AI came out and companies started to give all their most secret emails into, 29:37.080 --> 29:42.440 I mean, they put them into charge of it because, I mean, I know someone at a very high level, 29:42.440 --> 29:48.440 in a very high famous, a very big car company, a car group in it and they still use Google for their email, 29:48.440 --> 29:52.040 I said, but they aren't too afraid, the Google is might just check what your plans are and maybe 29:52.040 --> 29:58.040 come out and out on a bus car as they wanted to. So there's really a lack of this and the other thing is 29:58.040 --> 30:03.720 also enabling the young people. So we are not a continent for young people, we need to liberate the 30:03.800 --> 30:07.640 gross. If you go to Asia, it's full of young people that start doing stuff, I go around here, 30:07.640 --> 30:13.160 not just China, Southeast Asia, India, we have to, I mean, unleash the power of our young people 30:13.160 --> 30:21.080 that are very little of it. Thank you, we have to unleash the power, we have one minute left for the 30:21.080 --> 30:30.920 panel, do we have any questions in the room? I have one question about the European Southern 30:30.920 --> 30:38.200 Tech Fund. I understand that Microsoft GitHub, they want to have also industry funding into the 30:38.200 --> 30:45.480 European Southern Tech Fund. I think that will be the end of the project. The Germans do not have 30:45.480 --> 30:51.480 any funding from commercial offerings or commercial companies and it will end just like Guy Aix, 30:51.480 --> 31:01.720 like a dead thing. So are you able, are will you stop lobbying for industry input or will you just let 31:01.720 --> 31:06.280 you die? Is there a particular person that you would like to ask that or anyone? 31:11.000 --> 31:17.080 I guess I wasn't necessarily aware that they were pushing for the Southern, I think I think keeping 31:17.160 --> 31:24.200 the streamline separate is a good idea. I think having the Southern Tech Fund being a complete 31:24.200 --> 31:34.680 public, a complete public initiative makes sense, but I do think that industry is contributing 31:34.680 --> 31:42.120 back to open source in other ways, whether it is code or funding, you know, in a rendition of banks 31:42.120 --> 31:55.720 to good think for the ecosystem. So thank you, we have to finish. Thank you.