WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:11.640 I welcome everyone, please settle down, have conversations outside, if you can, if you're sitting 00:11.640 --> 00:17.080 on the edges of the rose, please gather in the middle so we can let more people in. 00:17.080 --> 00:23.680 There is a queue outside, I think, welcome very much to the public procurement talk. 00:23.680 --> 00:28.600 I forgot exactly what the title was, it was public procurement for digital sovereignty. 00:28.600 --> 00:31.800 So we've already heard a couple, wait, who am I? 00:31.800 --> 00:37.800 I'm Sebastian, I work with a pal, and I thank you very much for joining us today. 00:37.800 --> 00:42.720 A pal is the European Open Source Business Association, and I thought I'd invite some 00:42.720 --> 00:47.440 people over to have a little conversation about public procurement, public procurement 00:47.440 --> 00:51.800 sounds very enticing, doesn't it? 00:51.800 --> 00:57.880 But it's quite interesting. 00:57.880 --> 01:03.440 In the previous talks, we've already heard that there is a lot of talk about raising 01:03.440 --> 01:09.080 digital sovereignty in Europe, and we know all the international situation that has 01:09.080 --> 01:11.240 led to that. 01:11.240 --> 01:17.080 And actually, I've been for talks, I've been looking into the history of public funding for 01:17.080 --> 01:23.720 digital stuff, and some of the oldest programs for digital industry funding go back 01:23.720 --> 01:29.800 to the 1980s, I think the discussion started in the 1970s when Europe found out that suddenly 01:29.800 --> 01:38.560 they fell behind in computers, and then they set up a joint program already between the 01:38.560 --> 01:45.120 European, how was it called at the time economic union, economic community, is that 01:45.120 --> 01:46.120 already? 01:46.120 --> 01:49.120 Yeah. 01:49.120 --> 01:56.000 So 1984 was the first of the programs that precedes Horizon Europe, for example. 01:56.000 --> 02:02.520 So it goes back quite a long way, and we've not really managed to catch back up. 02:02.520 --> 02:09.680 So that is also part of the discussion, and finally I think, and that's also been said, 02:09.680 --> 02:14.960 there's a part of how we try and strengthen democratic control, if we think of compliance 02:14.960 --> 02:18.440 of firms that want to do digital business here. 02:18.440 --> 02:21.400 So why are we talking about public procurement? 02:21.400 --> 02:27.280 Because very timely, the EU is just reforming the central procurement framework in Europe, 02:27.280 --> 02:30.000 and that is why it sounds so boring. 02:30.000 --> 02:34.520 It is a very general program, or a very general framework. 02:34.520 --> 02:36.160 It's about the procurement of everything. 02:36.160 --> 02:38.400 This is not a digital program. 02:38.440 --> 02:43.680 But I think with the situation that we're in, we're in a situation where we can use public 02:43.680 --> 02:49.280 procurement to actually strengthen those broader policy goals that we have, and that includes 02:49.280 --> 02:51.880 in strengthening digital sovereignty. 02:51.880 --> 02:57.720 So welcome to the panel, Emma Garyani from Dino, you've already had the pleasure of meeting 02:57.720 --> 02:58.720 her before. 02:58.720 --> 03:03.520 In the previous panel, then we have Julian Schauder from Tendis. 03:03.520 --> 03:10.960 We have underraven tissue, who you've met, we have Maurice Hendricks from the Dutch Ministry 03:10.960 --> 03:17.040 of Health, Wales, and Sport, and you've just heard the presentation from last month's 03:17.040 --> 03:18.720 five from always two. 03:18.720 --> 03:22.480 And with that, I'd like to ask you to please introduce yourself and your work. 03:22.480 --> 03:26.240 And Emma, maybe you want to start. 03:26.240 --> 03:32.040 What is the state of open source adoption in the public authorities in France? 03:33.040 --> 03:33.880 Thank you. 03:33.880 --> 03:38.480 So I don't repeat myself, but you know, no, there is my head on this slide. 03:38.480 --> 03:45.680 So I'm the director of the French Ospo, and we're in charge of helping ministries across 03:45.680 --> 03:55.320 France to open their source code to promote free and open source software use and adoption. 03:55.320 --> 04:01.760 And I would say it's so France is quite, I mean, has a long history with open source. 04:01.760 --> 04:07.640 We have ministries that are really very active, other that are really not. 04:07.640 --> 04:11.040 So it's quite a heterogeneous. 04:11.040 --> 04:18.320 What I can say is that we can see that there's a switch, given the recent, I mean, geopolitical 04:18.320 --> 04:24.640 development, there's a switch in decision makers administrative decision makers mind, 04:24.640 --> 04:27.800 to really understand why open source is important. 04:27.840 --> 04:33.080 So AI has brought a lot to the understanding of why open source is important. 04:33.080 --> 04:36.520 And actually geopolitical events also did. 04:36.520 --> 04:39.400 So I would say it's really increasing. 04:39.400 --> 04:45.360 We've had a tender for quite a long time, that is in terministerial, that is serving as a way 04:45.360 --> 04:52.240 to facilitate the access of ministries to free and open source expertise around many different 04:52.240 --> 04:54.080 technologies. 04:54.080 --> 05:01.920 And as the new and also in the different ministries, we also have maybe a little European 05:01.920 --> 05:07.520 specificity, which is that we can contribute to open source products and technologies 05:07.520 --> 05:12.440 in different ways, one of them, which is really important for us is obviously procurement. 05:12.440 --> 05:17.480 And we have tenders for that, but we also contribute directly to the code of open source 05:17.480 --> 05:20.760 projects, and we also fund foundations. 05:20.760 --> 05:25.640 So for instance, the metrics foundation, we also have debyan, we fund conferences. 05:25.640 --> 05:29.200 So this is a way also for us to help the ecosystem live. 05:29.200 --> 05:35.680 So we try to really, because we have internalized people, tech people, so we're also able 05:35.680 --> 05:36.960 to contribute to the code base. 05:36.960 --> 05:43.000 So it's a framework of public investment for us into open source, that takes tenders into 05:43.000 --> 05:46.200 a con procurement into a conflict, also other ways to support. 05:46.200 --> 05:53.800 All right, then the next question, Maurice, we've already talked a bit about this when 05:53.800 --> 05:57.440 we meet Wednesday, I think. 05:57.440 --> 06:04.320 What is the public funding we use to further the use objectives? 06:04.320 --> 06:07.320 And what do you think about it? 06:07.400 --> 06:13.040 Right, I work at the Ministry of Health, well, for sports as an open source expert. 06:13.040 --> 06:19.320 And what we are doing now is building a new digital public infrastructure for data transfer 06:19.320 --> 06:26.240 in healthcare, between healthcare professionals and between healthcare and citizens. 06:26.240 --> 06:31.240 And the ministry feels that at this moment, building such an infrastructure and where we are 06:31.240 --> 06:35.760 now, the only option is to do it open source. 06:36.760 --> 06:40.800 We don't know if we're going to succeed with all the goals we want, but even if we succeed 06:40.800 --> 06:44.480 slightly, then we have set a major step. 06:44.480 --> 06:50.560 And what we've seen is that every step we take and all the things we do, we've procured 06:50.560 --> 06:56.320 fully open source in this digital public infrastructure, the effects are more than we expected. 06:56.320 --> 07:04.440 But Sebastian Neil did, I think, quite well, is that when I work fully in public with 07:04.440 --> 07:10.080 my open source instruments, and one of the most memorable talks I had yet, the last 07:10.080 --> 07:17.720 year was between the Dutch open source business alliances and the Dutch procurement experts. 07:17.720 --> 07:23.720 And the procurement experts has all kinds of ideas, why do open source companies not compete 07:23.720 --> 07:25.360 in our tenders? 07:25.360 --> 07:31.960 They try so hard to be open for open source, and the open source company said, why is government 07:32.000 --> 07:36.200 not putting so much effort in making tenders available for us? 07:36.200 --> 07:41.120 There was a gap, and I tried to bridge that gap to put those guys in a room and talk 07:41.120 --> 07:42.120 about it. 07:42.120 --> 07:50.120 And the Dutch open source business alliance made some changes to move a little bit to 07:50.120 --> 07:54.160 our us, and we made changes to move a little bit to them. 07:54.160 --> 08:00.200 So when working in the open manner on policy and making instruments for procurement 08:00.200 --> 08:06.320 experts, it really helps if the community, and that's what the call out had it yesterday, 08:06.320 --> 08:12.120 if the community can help, if something doesn't work in government, consider it a buck 08:12.120 --> 08:17.960 that the community can provide fixes for, and the last example I can give, there's a guy 08:17.960 --> 08:24.320 on Twitter making a black list of awful government tenders. 08:24.320 --> 08:28.360 But if there's one guy that follows all the tenders, and we have a Dutch open source 08:28.400 --> 08:34.320 business alliance not falling all our tenders, you have the best lobbyist out there not 08:34.320 --> 08:37.880 to make the black list, but also make the white list. 08:37.880 --> 08:41.680 And we can see him up, and that's a shadow that we are here. 08:41.680 --> 08:46.520 I have the gladly to women all suppose here as well. 08:46.520 --> 08:52.440 We are here to cooperate with you guys, but please take that hand and help us make it better. 08:58.360 --> 09:03.880 Thank you, I was just checking how much time we actually have. 09:03.880 --> 09:07.880 I wanted to have a show of hands because I know a couple of faces here in the room, but it 09:07.880 --> 09:13.880 would be actually interesting to know, do we have any business leaders, management level here? 09:13.880 --> 09:23.800 Please raise your hands, okay, so who are open source developers, and does anybody work 09:23.800 --> 09:32.800 in the public authorities who does procurement, okay, welcome. 09:32.800 --> 09:38.480 So maybe also for any follow-up questions that could be, that could be come interesting. 09:38.480 --> 09:43.880 And you're a check proposal, once you drive digital sovereignty and protect individual 09:43.880 --> 09:49.760 freedoms, how can you contribute to that as a public sector? 09:49.800 --> 09:53.440 Well, actually, I think it's always good to have plans. 09:53.440 --> 09:58.120 Sorry, I think it's always good to have some plans in the draw. 09:58.120 --> 10:03.560 If you're setting as right and use it in what ever context, so that's just, this was just 10:03.560 --> 10:08.960 my proposal for capacity building, but I would like to interject a bit and we saw people 10:08.960 --> 10:10.520 working in public procurement. 10:10.520 --> 10:15.080 I also worked in public procurement as a supply for the public sector. 10:15.080 --> 10:20.000 And so, with these legal changes, and this may be a dissenting view, I think the best 10:20.000 --> 10:27.280 for the open source community to aim for is an exclusion from this legislation, because 10:27.280 --> 10:32.520 there are certain elements where you don't have to go through the EU procurement processes, 10:32.520 --> 10:37.520 and that's more convenient if you're in a procurement position, not to have these complicated 10:37.520 --> 10:38.520 processes. 10:38.600 --> 10:44.520 So if there would be an exclusion from source, that would provide a huge incentive throughout 10:44.520 --> 10:50.400 the public sector, and everyone affected by this regulation to procure open source, because 10:50.400 --> 10:52.240 it's simpler for you. 10:52.240 --> 10:57.520 And also, this exclusion doesn't have to be total, by the way, in the regulation, 10:57.520 --> 11:03.040 there are, in the existing regulation, there are already broad exclusions for communication 11:03.040 --> 11:06.000 infrastructure, et cetera. 11:06.000 --> 11:10.320 And it wouldn't be fantastic to have this exclusion, but maybe not a total one, maybe 11:10.320 --> 11:15.960 just one for, as I mentioned on my slides, these co-platform services, what really matters 11:15.960 --> 11:22.280 operating systems, video telephony solutions, and so on. 11:22.280 --> 11:28.160 And then, additionally, have open source definitions and so on, put into this legal instrument 11:28.160 --> 11:35.240 for all the rest, that would be helpful to build a base within this legal instrument. 11:35.240 --> 11:36.240 Yeah. 11:36.240 --> 11:37.240 Excellent. 11:37.240 --> 11:41.880 Julian Chauder, you're from, here from Tendis, it's, you're a bit, are you, do you consider 11:41.880 --> 11:50.040 yourself's colleagues between Tendis or more frenemies, partners, are very, very close, 11:50.040 --> 11:53.480 which they're next to each other, very enough. 11:53.480 --> 12:01.160 So, my question to you, would be, is the adoption of open source actually going quick 12:01.160 --> 12:03.560 enough in public authorities? 12:03.560 --> 12:09.320 You, I think, are quite successful right now with the Open Desk, as a product with public 12:09.320 --> 12:10.320 authorities. 12:10.320 --> 12:12.120 How's it going? 12:12.120 --> 12:13.920 It's going marvellously, it's great. 12:13.920 --> 12:17.240 Now, it's, of course, it's complicated. 12:17.240 --> 12:22.240 When we consider the migration to the Open Desk, this, for many institutions, this is 12:22.240 --> 12:28.600 a largest migration, they are going to take in the next years or have been, in the last 12:28.600 --> 12:29.600 decade. 12:29.600 --> 12:35.360 Because they have been slowly getting into a, well, a consortium of tools that they 12:35.360 --> 12:38.200 were just used to. 12:38.200 --> 12:44.120 But apart from this, I think the procurement side for what we do doesn't impact us in the 12:44.120 --> 12:49.360 negative way too much, because the Open Desk is designed as a tool for digital sovereignty. 12:49.360 --> 12:54.680 And right now, there is no framework that allows digital sovereignty without the forfreedance. 12:54.680 --> 12:57.280 We don't have a competitor in that field. 12:57.280 --> 13:01.600 If someone wants a sovereign solution, that's the tool to choose, and that's what the 13:01.600 --> 13:03.720 tenders are going to go for. 13:03.720 --> 13:07.240 The alternatives just can't put up with this. 13:07.240 --> 13:11.400 But at the same time, we are at the very, very special situation. 13:11.400 --> 13:17.080 The Zenders, it was, and the Open Desk in particular, was designed for digital sovereignty. 13:17.080 --> 13:24.020 And we were funded by the government, we are still a government agency, and we were always 13:24.020 --> 13:27.740 prepared to lose the product, because this is not just open source. 13:27.740 --> 13:32.660 We use components that existed before, yes, like standing on the shoulders of giants. 13:32.660 --> 13:34.980 But at the same time, this is complete free software. 13:34.980 --> 13:37.500 We do not have a proprietary model behind this. 13:37.500 --> 13:43.820 This is not, we take most of the code and build the tool on top of it, which is for many 13:43.820 --> 13:47.940 open source, or many tools, there's a status quo, how it's built. 13:47.940 --> 13:49.260 We go the free software way. 13:49.260 --> 13:52.820 The software itself is, we are exchangeable, right? 13:52.820 --> 13:57.580 Anyone else, any other company, could take our place instead. 13:57.580 --> 13:59.820 And this is something we have been prepared for, right? 13:59.820 --> 14:03.860 For other companies, this is a completely different game. 14:03.860 --> 14:10.700 So this doesn't face us as much, but whenever I talk to companies, open source companies, 14:10.700 --> 14:14.340 this is what they call a problem with investments. 14:14.340 --> 14:18.420 They don't understand that you can invest in a software, you make it free software, you 14:18.420 --> 14:22.140 make it available, and your competitor has it as well. 14:22.140 --> 14:28.580 This is something we are starting to understand as a society, and how can we make this shift, 14:28.580 --> 14:34.780 how can we ensure that the open software solutions are available, they are able to put money 14:34.780 --> 14:38.300 upfront and not lose it just to the competitors. 14:38.300 --> 14:43.420 Again, we are zendous, we are from the state, where we have a different situation. 14:43.420 --> 14:45.220 If we lose the product, this is fine, right? 14:45.220 --> 14:46.740 The problem is solved. 14:46.740 --> 14:50.580 For others, it's a completely different game, and I think this is something we have to 14:50.580 --> 14:51.580 address. 14:51.580 --> 14:56.580 On the other side, when we talk about, that's a question. 14:56.580 --> 14:59.660 I think we'll take questions at the end, I'd rather, first discuss that. 14:59.660 --> 15:01.660 He was, he sounded eager. 15:01.660 --> 15:07.140 Right, so this is just one part of this, and the other side, I can completely agree with 15:07.140 --> 15:08.540 what it's been said before. 15:08.540 --> 15:15.140 When I say digital sovereignty, and it doesn't face us as much, that open source has 15:15.140 --> 15:23.700 made competitors in various fields, but for many solutions, this is exactly what happens. 15:23.700 --> 15:27.580 The easier solution gets taken, or the one that has a name that is just established, and 15:27.580 --> 15:29.140 is an open source. 15:29.140 --> 15:32.540 This is why I completely understand the idea that it has to be forced. 15:32.540 --> 15:37.100 Open source is not an idea, it's not just one thing that can be opted into. 15:37.100 --> 15:40.420 You shouldn't even be able to opt out of it. 15:40.420 --> 15:45.620 Otherwise, the procurement will always go on most likely, but have it easier to go for 15:45.620 --> 15:47.460 the more proprietary solution. 15:47.460 --> 15:52.260 Last month, you've lightened out a couple of issues already for the public sector. 15:52.260 --> 15:56.900 How do you think the e-regulation could help in that regard? 15:56.900 --> 16:04.140 Thank you for that question, because I'm in no way a procurement expert. 16:04.140 --> 16:06.900 We're not reflecting on this. 16:06.900 --> 16:12.900 I can come up with some answers, and then that answer creates three new problems. 16:12.900 --> 16:22.380 To give it a shot, I think we need a mechanism, so it becomes okay to ask for the total cost 16:22.380 --> 16:27.980 of transition, or the total cost of excess, as part of the procurement process, and the 16:27.980 --> 16:30.180 evaluation criteria. 16:30.220 --> 16:31.660 It actually becomes transparent. 16:31.660 --> 16:39.860 If I choose this piece of software, it will cost me X amount to replace it in three years. 16:39.860 --> 16:45.380 Then I think open source would win every time, hopefully. 16:45.380 --> 16:52.180 And another city, I think it could be that we need to distribute the risk, so we don't 16:52.180 --> 16:55.900 just push the risk downwards. 16:55.940 --> 17:04.340 We need to collaboratively see how the risk, so maybe if the EU had a standardized set 17:04.340 --> 17:10.620 of procurement specifications, and if you use those, then there's some form of safe 17:10.620 --> 17:15.980 harbour, legal safe harbour, and to take it even further, those specifications could 17:15.980 --> 17:21.340 be an open source project, where each member's state could contribute. 17:21.900 --> 17:24.580 There's already a bit of nodding and headshaking from undery. 17:26.580 --> 17:27.300 Oh, yeah, I see that. 17:32.860 --> 17:38.380 Yeah, I thought maybe you wanted to react to what Russell said, because you were very engaged. 17:38.380 --> 17:38.860 It seemed. 17:39.100 --> 17:40.700 Yeah, I was very excited. 17:40.700 --> 17:43.340 I think we should have the discussion. 17:43.340 --> 17:48.580 There will be this EU reform on the procurement rules, and it's very complicated. 17:48.580 --> 17:54.020 And a lot of parameters we should think carefully about, and keep in mind that it's not 17:54.020 --> 17:59.540 only about open source, but there's something else I would like to interject is, in Germany, 17:59.540 --> 18:03.380 what we got enshrined into law, in some federal states, actually, see how it's just like 18:03.380 --> 18:08.020 touring, but also on the national level, in the online students' heads, too, online access 18:08.020 --> 18:14.460 law, too, is like a soft preference for open source, like open source is to be preferred. 18:14.460 --> 18:19.820 And of course, the pressure groups for open source, they're not satisfied with that. 18:19.820 --> 18:24.540 They said, oh, it should be mandated, but at the same time, it creates an environment, 18:24.540 --> 18:30.420 and we know it's like a slow migration process, where one moves into the right direction. 18:30.420 --> 18:36.100 A bit like this, you know, this is fish trap, where one, the fish can also go back, 18:36.100 --> 18:41.900 but we have the tendency to go move into the right direction, without having like this 18:41.900 --> 18:46.740 hard, no, you have to use this, because especially in the public sector, when it comes 18:46.740 --> 18:53.180 to migrating to a new office productivity software, it could be that your employees actually 18:53.180 --> 18:57.100 hate the software, they don't like it, they say, why can't we use whatever one else 18:57.100 --> 19:01.860 use, I want to use teams, I want to use Excel, this is so unproductive, and then, you 19:01.860 --> 19:07.100 know, the next political government will complete your reverse everything, that's always 19:07.180 --> 19:12.900 a risk, and in the end, I think what's important is that we move slowly into the right 19:12.900 --> 19:23.700 direction strategically over 10 years, maybe, yeah, I like the idea of open source first, 19:23.700 --> 19:30.140 or open source by default, or unless, or whatever we call it, but it just seems to me that 19:30.140 --> 19:34.500 does it actually work, because it's, it's in the law, and it's, I don't know, there's 19:34.500 --> 19:40.540 something in the Netherlands and various other places, and it's always the unless, we 19:40.540 --> 19:45.540 see the same in the governance model in the association, I represent, even with members 19:45.540 --> 19:51.420 that are, we have direct contact with, they always use the unless explanation, and that's 19:51.420 --> 19:55.980 why I think, if we make it, instead, think of, okay, don't, let's not try to force people 19:55.980 --> 20:00.500 using open source, let's make it transparent, what is the total cost of choosing Microsoft 20:00.500 --> 20:06.900 Office 365, because no one knows what the total cost is, they know what it is, what the 20:06.900 --> 20:13.380 yearly fee is, but the actual transformation, if you need to change it, no one knows what 20:13.380 --> 20:17.660 the cost is, and we need the transparency on that. 20:17.660 --> 20:23.580 We only have about five minutes left, I'm very sorry, do you want to quickly interject 20:23.580 --> 20:24.580 some things to you? 20:24.580 --> 20:25.580 Yes. 20:25.580 --> 20:27.580 And then we asked the audience for questions because they were already some arms. 20:27.660 --> 20:31.820 I was a small addition to the, and in the Netherlands, we also have to policy on with, 20:31.820 --> 20:38.060 and when the software is equal, then open source get, and needs threat preference, but 20:38.060 --> 20:43.380 what the issue with that is that is a matter of equality versus equity. 20:43.380 --> 20:49.340 Open source works differently, has a different rule set than close source, so the ecosystem 20:49.340 --> 20:55.140 is different, so if you don't know that the ecosystem you're procuring in, it's placed 20:55.140 --> 20:56.140 by different rules. 20:56.140 --> 21:01.940 You never get that equality, so open source never gets the preference, so we need to change 21:01.940 --> 21:09.220 the way we've cured to actually get into that stage that there is equal preferences, and 21:09.220 --> 21:15.460 that's something that I try to educate a lot in the Netherlands, that the policy is useless 21:15.460 --> 21:19.860 if you don't grasp the underlying differences that are, that already. 21:19.860 --> 21:23.460 It already takes me to the first question that we received online, and that's, do you 21:23.460 --> 21:27.180 have a guide that's available from the Dutch government already? 21:27.180 --> 21:34.700 Yes, I have a lot of open policy instruments that I'm shouting out to cooperate with, in 21:34.700 --> 21:41.140 which I make it easy for procurement experts to actually procure open source. 21:41.140 --> 21:43.540 Where can people easily find it? 21:43.540 --> 21:50.540 Yes, I've posted it and joined up, I've posted it in the due group of selected group, 21:50.540 --> 21:56.740 and if there are better places where we can cooperate on these instruments, I translate 21:56.740 --> 22:02.220 them into English, for example, with Patrice Emmanuel, from the EU European Commission, 22:02.220 --> 22:09.020 with Emma yesterday on these, so it would be great if we could cooperate and make open source 22:09.020 --> 22:15.860 community development actually work for the procurement experts that do the practical jobs 22:15.940 --> 22:28.540 that also, no Sebastian, you're, we will put the links on the description of the session. 22:28.540 --> 22:33.540 All right, questions from the audience, I'll take women and non mails first, and you had 22:33.540 --> 22:50.220 your question online. 22:50.220 --> 22:53.220 Any non mails? 22:53.220 --> 22:56.220 I'm sorry if I'm assuming. 22:56.220 --> 22:58.220 All right. 22:58.220 --> 22:59.220 Thank you. 22:59.620 --> 23:04.220 My name is Thomas coming from a Swedish company called Digitalist, and I've been procuring 23:04.220 --> 23:10.740 towards governments for 20 years, and I've been very frustrated, we've been providing open 23:10.740 --> 23:17.420 source, but I think I'm thinking positive here, so I'm, and I like what you've talked 23:17.420 --> 23:23.300 about last night's with, and I think incitement is the key, and we need to find incitement 23:23.380 --> 23:27.940 for the procuring authorities and for the providers. 23:27.940 --> 23:35.700 So my idea goes to that we need to start valuing what companies do and what we procure 23:35.700 --> 23:41.420 in terms of money and resources, and I think one of the things you mentioned, Rasmus, is that 23:41.420 --> 23:48.300 like how easy is it to change, or we also need to look at the providers, are they contributing 23:48.300 --> 23:52.540 upstream that should affect the project budget basically? 23:52.540 --> 23:58.380 So, and other things is like, is the company paying taxes back to Europe, or is it like 23:58.380 --> 24:02.620 a tax-constructive, like Microsoft, where everything goes back to the United States, without 24:02.620 --> 24:05.220 actually staying in the European Union? 24:05.220 --> 24:13.500 So if you look, take these parameters and make instant, like change how we value procurements, 24:13.500 --> 24:18.420 we will see the real value to back to the society when we procure software. 24:18.500 --> 24:24.300 So that's my idea, my question to the panel, have you seen something like that, or do you like 24:24.300 --> 24:25.300 the idea? 24:25.300 --> 24:34.420 Can I, two weeks ago, I published an article in a Dutch news letter that's also been 24:34.420 --> 24:39.260 read by many students, by parliament, about secured ownership. 24:39.260 --> 24:43.780 So in the Netherlands, we had a situation that our digital identity infrastructure, cloud 24:43.860 --> 24:49.340 provided was taken over by the American private equity, and what we've said in the opinion 24:49.340 --> 24:55.980 was just looking at the company in itself, isn't enough, you also should look at those 24:55.980 --> 25:02.020 owning the companies and the rich behind that, so that stock market companies have a lot 25:02.020 --> 25:07.220 more rich than the Stewart-owned companies or social enterprises, and that we should take that 25:07.300 --> 25:13.340 inconsideration for vital infrastructure companies. 25:13.340 --> 25:18.820 This has been taken by markets and scientists into a petition and handed over to parliament. 25:18.820 --> 25:24.540 So this is something that we're working on, but again, it's pushing the boundaries of 25:24.540 --> 25:29.540 procurement law and it's something that the lawyers in the Netherlands find difficult 25:29.540 --> 25:35.460 to move around, and that we, it's also, it's all European procurement law, so if we 25:35.540 --> 25:40.820 can team up with lawyers, a nation or a European, why that would be great to make this 25:40.820 --> 25:41.820 actually worth. 25:41.820 --> 25:47.340 We are unfortunately on time, so I look at the mic to Emma from one last statement. 25:47.340 --> 25:48.340 One last statement. 25:48.340 --> 25:56.980 I wanted to, so in France, the situation went from very, when it's to procure, went 25:56.980 --> 26:02.660 from open sources, not in the plan, to it's plan B to help us best negotiate with 26:02.740 --> 26:07.940 the preparatory solutions, so it's always nice to have a plan B to say, oh, can you lower 26:07.940 --> 26:14.820 a little please the price of the license and make a better deal for me to plan A prime, 26:14.820 --> 26:21.940 which is our, well, for some reason maybe we should consider it as our plan A, so I would 26:21.940 --> 26:28.820 say we are now in this situation for most of the ministry, which is a really great news, 26:28.820 --> 26:34.260 and I agree with what you say, who is too, that we really, I mean, it's my job at the 26:34.260 --> 26:41.220 Ospo to help ministries work on guidelines so that it's easier for them to procure in an 26:41.220 --> 26:45.700 interesting manner in something, in a manner that's interesting for the open source ecosystem, 26:45.700 --> 26:54.660 so meaning that, for instance, if you buy from a vendor or from an integrator that is open source 26:54.660 --> 27:02.180 to make sure that this person will reinvest into the maintenance, and this is the kind of detail 27:02.180 --> 27:08.340 that we're working on our procurement right now to make sure that not only do we buy from companies 27:09.620 --> 27:15.620 when we buy from companies, but also let's buy from companies that really supports maintenance 27:15.620 --> 27:20.500 and ecosystem. Thank you so much, I'm so sorry that we only had sort of time. 27:20.500 --> 27:27.140 Thank you, everyone. If you leave in the room, please do so quietly because we